35: Educational Interpreters with Priscilla Blanco
Priscilla talks about supporting students who use an educational interpreter in the classroom.
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35: Educational Interpreters with Priscilla Blanco
D: Hello and welcome to the TOD POD, a podcast to support Itinerant Teachers of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing, SLPs, and other Deaf Education Professionals. I'm Deanna Barlow from Listening Fun and today we're talking about working with educational interpreters with Pricilla Blanco . Thanks so much for being here Priscilla.
P: Hi Deanna thank you for having me. My name, Pricilla Blanco. I have been working as a Teacher of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing for about 6 years now. I've worked in self-contained, inclusion settings, total communication programs and mostly at a high school level. But I've done basically almost every grade you can possibly think about and I've just recently moved into like itinerant work.
D: Yeah, actually we work together now which is how we know each other and I'm very thankful she's here to talk about interpreting because that's just not something I've had a lot of experience with on my caseload but since Priscilla came from another program and especially high schoolers she just has like so much good stuff to share with us today. So I really appreciate it.
P: Excited to be here.
Both: [LAUGH]
D: If you could just tell us what your experience specifically is with working with educational interpreters.
P: So right out of college I started working at a high school and it was a total communication high school so we had hearing kids, Deaf kids, hard of hearing kids, like you name it. Within the high school program we had both inclusion setting and self-contained setting. So I worked with interpreters mostly within the inclusion setting but sometimes they also worked with me in my self-contained classes that were high language-based, like language arts or like social studies for example, and yeah, that was like my first five years of working with the Deaf community.
D: So did you ever like join in the class of when they were like in inclusion where there was like a general ed teacher, an interpreter, and a student.
P: Yeah, so that was basically what our inclusion setting was. So basically it would be me, the gen ed teacher, the interpreter, and any like maybe sometimes there was another special ed teacher, or sometimes there was one or a couple of para professionals depending on the student population need.
D: Got it, okay, yeah. So what are like the best practices for working with an interpreter? What should we be telling that gen ed teacher that we're working with who has a student in their class and they're using an interpreter and we want to coach the gen ed teacher on what they should and maybe shouldn't be doing?
P: Right, it's so important. I think like the very first thing, and I think the most important thing when working with interpreters in general education classrooms and inclusion settings is setting up your interpreter to succeed. And what do I mean by that? Making sure that the very first day of school, you're introducing your interpreter, and you're introducing the interpreter's role. Like what are they here to do, what can they do, what they shouldn't be doing, what the gen ed teacher should and shouldn't rely them to do. Like they're not there as a para professional, they're not there to assist your kids with classwork, they're not there to assist the other students right? They're there for your Deaf or Hard of Hearing student to make sure that they have access to language, right? Another thing is that in that same token that first day, maybe give the interpreter the floor, the classroom floor, to maybe answer questions coming from the students of how to utilize them, how to communicate best with their deaf and hard of hearing and peer, and any questions that may arise from the students. And students don't want to do something inappropriate right? So the earlier you give them like a set of quote unquote rules of how to communicate with this extra adult in the classroom, the better.
D: Yeah, that kind of makes sense that you could fold it in until like at the beginning of the year all the teachers are going over like their classroom expectations and like I guess in like elementary school they have like more explicit like classroom rules. But even in high school like teachers usually that first week will over the syllabus and they like say like this is how I collect work, this is my grading policy, and this is how you use an interpreter. Like you know like it makes sense to just like fold it in so that way it just is one of those other classroom expectations and maybe like prepping the teacher of like this is a new set of expectations that are going to be in your room so let's like front load this information. [LAUGH]
P: Right? Exactly so having all that from the very beginning is very helpful. Also even before that, making sure that there's a kind of, there's a conversation had about where does the teacher teach from, where can we seat the student or students so that they can better see the interpreter, where is an interpreter going to be stationed, whether it's sitting down or standing up like combination of both. Making sure that that specific spot there's no like very like busy background posters and stuff that can take away from the interpreter. Or like if there's a big light behind the interpreter that's not a great thing because it makes it harder to see the sign clearly and I think another really important thing that sometimes we forget is that the interpreter needs to prepare just as much as our teacher.
D: How interesting.
P: So making sure that your lesson plans are due well ahead of time that they can see the lesson plans, especially in those classes that are high in language-based classes right? They want to be able to see the vocabulary that they're going to need and use. The interpreter also knows, or gets to know their student. So maybe the teachers using this set of vocabulary that if they have it ahead of time they can kind of like already plan for those misconceptions or like those language clarifications that they have to be ready for. Like yes, every interpreter I've worked with has been amazing and so skilled and they can do these things…
D: Yeah.
P: …like right there and then. But we want to be able to give our students the best access to language possible and for them to be able to like 100% do that or like, well it’s hard to do anything 100%, but like the best possible access to language is if they themselves are prepared.
D: Yeah, that's such a good tip. Going back to like placing the interpreter is there like a certain spot that like is your first choice? Like close to the board, close to the student, is it case by case?
P: In my case, we always made sure that the students optimal sitting always like usually in the middle front of the classroom. So then we would make sure that the interpreter was in like a good visual from them but also close to the board since a lot of the teaching was being done by the board.
D: Yeah.
P: But it also kind of you know it's like case by case. Like is this teacher going back and forth between two boards? Like you know like sometimes classes have a board in the front and the board in the back.
D: Mhmm.
P: So it really is a planning like a conversation between that TOD, the gen ed teacher, and the interpreter to best service our students within that classroom.
D: Yeah, awesome that makes sense. And how did you, actually I know you talked a little bit about like, how it's like you talk about what they are and what they aren’t. But how do you actually, like when you first talk to the teacher, explain the role of the interpreter? And the reason I ask is because I think everyone listening knows the role of the interpreter. But I love hearing how people explain things. Like that's like what I find helpful is like the specific words that people use. So like if you're talking to a gen ed teacher and there's going to be an interpreter, what do you actually like say to them?
P: I really like explaining things through examples or like through scenarios. So I would course like explain to them our like general role of our interpreters is to help our Deaf of Hard of Hearing student communicate with our hearing community. And then I would go into like more examples of like how they should communicate with the student, right? Making sure that you're not talking to the interpreter but you're talking to your student, for example.
D: Mhmm.
P: And the interpreters is there simply as a voice or as someone to like sign to the student so making sure that the student always knows that this is the interpreter is like a tool and not just speaking for them. You know giving the student the autonomy.
D:Yeah.
P: So I usually explain the roles that way by giving examples.
D: Do you ever have, like do you ever have run into like problems where the teachers are like directing things to the interpreter or like asking the interpreter to help the student with things and like kind of stepping outside like the teachers are expecting them to step outside of their responsibilities?
P: Yes I don't think, obviously I don't think anyone does anything maliciously but it happens very often. So having that conversation from the get go, or like as a teacher you shouldn't really be sending comments directly to the interpreter. Like I had a teacher that would like make little jokes like say this really or like how do you say this really fast or like signing like making sure that the interpreter was like signing this funny hearing thing very fast and like they would like make like a little joke about it. So like having those conversations aside so that like it's not something that continues to happen in the classroom because happens a lot a lot a lot. Or making sure that they know, hey they're really here, someone to help us all be able to communicate with this student right? Or like to make sure that the student is able to communicate with us. They probably they might not know anything about the content you know, they are language experts right?
D: Right.
P: So use them for what they’re the experts on.
D: Yeah, totally make sense. I totally understand. I feel like sometimes people just have some bad habits that they can be corrected over over time…
Both: [LAUGH]
D: …with a little bit of help.
P: Really it happens so much.
D: Yeah. So that's stuff that like we can do to set up the teacher with the interpreter. If we look at the actual student, what skills does a student need to have in order to successfully use an interpreter and do you have any tips for teaching them these necessary skills?
P: Right? So as any other skill, being able to utilize an in interpreter is something that is not innate like it's taught. And it's taught from very very little. We all know the attention span of like a four or five year old right?
Both: [LAUGH]
D: Yeah, not very long.
P: Making like making sure that like our pre-k or kindergartners are being given access to always like look at the interpreter, keep the attention to the interpreter, having that attention skill like from the very beginning.
D: Did you usually start interpreters that young? That's normal, that's a typical thing to do?
P: I don't, I've seen them in elementary school I haven't necessarily seen them in Prek, I've seen them in Kindergarten. But I've seen them in Kindergarten more for maybe like read aloud like they're not. They're not necessarily there all day or if they're there all day, they're not being utilized or they usually in the elementary level where I've like seen it all the teachers were able to sign. So like there weren’t being, they didn't really need an interpreter unless they were doing things like read aloud for example, Um, so.
D: Got it. But even then it's probably a good thing for the student to have some experience with an interpreter even if it is more of just like an exposure like during a certain activity that way like the first time they use an interpreter is not like okay you're in fifth grade now use an interpreter all day to learn like… [LAUGH]
P: Right. So that's what that's what I meant and again it's It's very like okay we're going to practice using the interpreter now, like I don't know if necessarily the teacher is gonna say that, but it's like a mental note.
D: Mhmm.
P: They do it specifically so they can practice a skill. So yes, the attention skill of keeping the attention on the interpreter is also, everything is a spectrum right? So we have kids who are completely Deaf and rely on the interpreter all the time. But then we have our hearing students who maybe don't necessarily watch the interpreter at all times but use them for sign support for our language base right? So it really also becomes more of a case by case with the student but still that that need up whenever someone is speaking in the front of the classroom being able to keep your attention on the interpreter is very important.
D: Yeah, and I feel like what you just mentioned is so helpful because like if you have a student who has some access through listening devices but uses an interpreter for like clarification or like you said through like really language rich classes then you talking to them about like how they can use the interpreter to get clarification and like how they can use sign during certain times and listen other times and like actually making that a little more like concrete for the student because that might not be like a natural.. They might think that they're getting everything, and they might not be getting everything because like it's very hard to realize when you're missing things until you're like very confused. So I feel like that's such a good idea and such a good point of like not everyone needs the interpreter for every single thing that's being said, but if they're going to use it intermittently then they need to be taught how to use it intermittently, well.
P: Right. So that's where kind of like that Teacher the Deaf, educational interpreter team kind of like goes hand in hand right?
D: Right.
P: Like you want to be able to support your interpreter in order for them to do the best job they can with your shared student right?
D: Mhmm.
P: Also you'd be surprised into how many times as a Teacher of the Deaf like someone that might not necessarily know much about the use of an interpreter, can say things like, they're not telling them the answers right? And I'm like no, they're literally just saying what you said.
D: Unless you're saying the answer, they're not saying the answer.
Both: [LAUGH]
P: So making sure that I guess your gen ed teachers, hearing people in the classroom, also know that. It's so silly but you have to say it sometimes.
D: Yeah, do they kids know that they have to address their questions to the teacher and not to the interpreter like or is that something you teach them?
P: That is something you teach, yes, it's again when you're starting to learn how to use your interpreter those are like skills that you reinforces. And then it also happens to the hearing kids where again when we talked about before, talking about the role of the interpreter you want to make sure that your student’s hearing peers know, hey if you're talking to X or Y and Z, talk to Z and Y and Z and they'll sign for you. Don't go to the interpreter and say, hey can you tell X and Y and Z this and this and that.
D: Yeah, that’s probably…
P: Probably something that happens a lot. So it's like more of like one thing from the very beginning and then re enforcing that skill, like talk to the student when it does happen.
D: Mhmm. I feel like probably people feel like they're being rude when they just like talk to someone who doesn't use spoken language. They probably, like I bet they're first, and I feel like a lot of people do that because they think they're being rude, but really, it's it's really rude to do it the other way but like that's like counterintuitive that they like they just want to get there. They want to tell them it as fast as possible I feel like people aren't comfortable with like delays. But that's such a good thing to like just like tell them upfront that like this is the right way to do it and like it's okay to like talk to them like you're they're not going to be offended because they're not under like because the interpreter is going to interpret. So like that's okay.
P: Right. Like that's that's their job. A lot of it is that reassuring our hearing community, hey you're not talking to me so don't talk to me.
Both: [LAUGH]
D: Right, it sounds so simple but like I totally got it because like I don't work with any educational interpreters right now. But I do work with a Spanish interpreter for a family I work with in early intervention and it's very hard not to turn to the interpreter and talk like even though like because even though I know I'm not supposed to do that, it's like it feels unnatural to talk to someone who I know cannot understand me and like will have to wait for the interpreter. But.
P: Right.
D: Like I know that that's the correct way to use an interpreter and it just it feels a little unnatural if you're not used to it. Even if you are used to it, it's still, I get it. But it is important to make sure that they're doing it correctly, you never want the student or the parent or whoever it is to feel like you're talking around them.
P: Right. And that kind of reminds me of a, I guess like a best practice of going back to that question, is like you have to make sure that your teachers and your in like those the other students in the classroom understand that there is a lag, like for example in the case that a teacher asks a question to the whole class, we all have the skills like okay, we're going to wait for the class to process information. But most of the time it's not enough time because then the interpreter is still interpreting. You need to remind them that they need to give the whole class, including your student, a little bit of extra time so that the interpreter can finish the interpretation of the question and your student can then be at the same level as the rest of the students. Because if if you don't like let's say that teacher immediately calls on a student and that's not really fair for your student because they're not able to participate because they're like a couple minutes behind than the conversation is. So another skill, like a conversational skill, to like practice and also definitely mention at the beginning of the school year. There needs to be a bit of a lag. Even if this feels weird, even if it feels like you're pausing for an extra second, that extra second is necessary for our students.
D: Yeah, absolutely I feel like that's one of the hardest things for people is to wait.
P: Right, that wait time [LAUGH].
D: I have a question I just thought of. Do you ever have a situation where there's like more than one person using the interpreter in the class and does that change anything about how the. Interpretation is set up? Or any like best practices if there's like 2 or 3 students using an interpreter?
P: So that happens a lot actually, is what happens the most in high school. We had multiple students who are deaf and hard of hearing within a class. So it really depends on how the classroom is set up. Like if you have a room that I set up in groups, you try to group your Deaf and Hard of Hearing students close to each other. You don't have to clump them together always because you don't want to make them feel like a subgroup.
D: Right.
P: If they are very good friends with each other and they want to sit together, that's great. But don’t force your students to sit with each other just because they're Deaf and Hard of Hearing, if that makes sense. As long as they are in the same general area and they're able to see the interpreter then that's the goal. Now that changes if you're doing kind of like group work.
D: Right.
P: If you only have one interpreter in your classroom and they're doing group then they have to be in the same group because at that point you only have that one interpreter for how are many of the students you have.
D: If they're in a group and the two deaf students are talking to each other does the interpreter voice both sides of that conversation for everybody else?
P: Yes, they have to voice everything and they have to sign everything.
D: Yeah.
P: So it the it goes both ways right? So does as much as our Deaf students need to know everything that's being said in the classroom for them and for our their peers to kind of feel included and have like better communication with each other, they should be able to like not look lost here or not be lost in their conversation.
D: Yeah, does it ever impact like the social conversation to have it interpreted because it's like an adult?
P: It impacts it every time and that's sadly something that a lot of our students would kind of like complain about like they they felt isolated sometimes because their friends, like there are things that their friends like couldn't tell them. But you know like especially in high school, they kind of would go around it and like you also saw if it wasn't about class, for example, it's was like about their own thing, whatever it's happening in period 3 or happened whatever, they would come up and be able to text it in their phones and like showing conversations on their own.
D: Teenagers are sneaky and I get that sometimes.
Both: [LAUGH]
D: Not all teenagers, not all teenagers. But that doesn’t surprise me at all actually. They could find a way around that.
Both: [LAUGH]
P: So yeah, so they find ways to be friends. Like you didn't see it a lot in our ‘freshies’ like freshmen tend to stay together. stick together, like the Deaf freshman that tended to be with other Deaf and Hard of Hearing freshmen. But as they got older and they were more I guess they felt more included in the community, you saw more of like hearing and Deaf and hearing and heart of hearing and intermingling.
D: Mixing up, yeah.
P: And that is very important and also really I kind of put it on this school more and like the class more than on our students because you want to help them feel comfortable.
D: Have it but have you ever worked with like a virtual interpreter?
P: Thankfully after Covid we had I I never had to use an interpreter online but during Covid that's all we could do.
D: Yeah, one day I maybe I'll try to get someone who like is a virtual interpreter to come on. If you know a virtual interpreter and they want to be interviewed for the TOD POD let me know. Because I feel like, you like obviously in-person interpreter would be like ideal for everybody. But since like, if you can't get one and in and a virtual interpreter is what you're working with then there probably are like different strategies and stuff to make that somewhat better. But it did remind me, it did remind me of another question though. Because we, a lot of our um staff meetings, like for for where we work me and Pricilla are interpreted because it's a big you know program and they're signing people in it. And they switch out like it's a very rarely one interpreter. When you have an educational interpreter, is it one interpreter all day or is it different interpreters for different classes for like the same group of students? Like do they take breaks like teachers take breaks or do they take breaks more frequently? Like how does that work?
P: So at the high school level, there's multiple interpreters for the high school and they would have a schedule just like I would have a schedule, so like…
D: Okay. Got it.
P: Miss T would have first period english, second period social studies with this grade, and then they would like kind of have that and then they would have their own preps and lunch as well. So for the high school level they switch. There's multiple interpreters for the school and they create they have like their own schedule that they create according to the needs of the students and how they're being grouped with with inclusion classes. And the elementary school, I only board with interpreters in the momentary school during summer school., so I'm not sure if this is the same way in during the school year. But during summer school you had one or two interpreters in the classroom depending on like how big your classroom was, like how many students you had for the summer. And also depending on the needs and they did switch out sometimes they would like one would go to lunch or prep or whatever time that they had their break and then the other one would pop in. Or our days would be scheduled so that like I need an interpreter for this specific lesson but we all signed but we didn't necessarily need, in elementary school, we didn't necessarily need interpreters all the time.
D: Got it.
P: But again that was in this summer so I'm not sure how it really works in the school year.
D: Yeah, that makes sense so that like when at the high school level. They would just have them like scheduled so that way every class was covered as opposed to being assigned to like a specific student.
P: Right.
D: Yeah I wonder how that would change like if you were supporting like someone as an itinerant for example who signed and used an interpreter? Like I wonder if they were the only student in the whole school you know or like one of very few, how that would work?
P: So that that did happen a couple of times, just because of scheduling where like one interpreter ended up being like following this one specific student or these two students throughout the day. And what would happen for their like break is that they would take the break or their prep and lunch or whatever when the kids go have lunch.
D: Yeah, that makes sense. So there's no interpreter during lunch?
P: No.
D: What about like clubs?
P: Ah, so club through after school and technically are their interpreters, at least in the program that I work at, the interpreters were paid from the beginning of the day to end of day and clubs are after school so they would just have to, it was more like, hey Miss T are you able to interpreter, ah interpret, oh my goodness, for the student if they want to join knitting club, and knitting club meets Wednesday afternoons from 3 to 5. And then it kind of becomes more of like do you have the interpreter to do that?
D: Right.
P: And our interpreters, nine out of the time 10 times like the interpreter always said yes because we all want our kids to be able to do clubs, like have the access to those things. And we also had the choice like maybe if the teacher of the deaf also had an interpreting license, in the afternoon they would interpret for the student if there wasn't any other like choice and stuff like that.
D: Yeah, right. If they have the certification, makes sense. Okay, great. Do you have any like helpful resources or any like last minute tips that you'd like to share with everybody for working with interpreters?
P: Okay so I just remember some things that I didn't say in best practices.
D: Okay, tell me.
P: Like be mindful, be mindful of your rate of speech. Don't go too slow and don't go too fast. You know, just speak on normal pace. But also be mindful of like that wait time that we talked about. And don't walk in front of an interpreter [LAUGH] or try not to. You know it happens, you don’t, you like walking around, you're not thinking about like where you're going or how you're going and you end up walking in front of the interpreter. Link just don’t block them. As a Teacher of the Deaf, you can sign my biggest thing at the beginning of my working with interpreters, like my first year teaching was reminding myself to put my hands down. Like don't sign over the interpreter [LAUGH].
D: Yeah, I mean like I would never talk over a teacher. But it, signing over the interpreter is kind of the same thing right.
P: Right. Because then your kid, who's like, who are they looking at you know?
D: Right that’s a good point.
P: As a Teacher of the Deaf I had to always remind myself if I'm in inclusion, I'm not in my self contained classroom, if I'm in inclusion, I'm not gonna sign because there's already someone signing. So I made, it I made it a point that unless I was specifically only talking to my students during classwork, independent time, then I would sign with them. But other than that I had to like always slap my hand, like stop signing [LAUGH]. It's also like rude to the interpreter because that's their job, you know. You know you don't want to do that to them.
D: Yeah I mean it totally makes sense. You don't want to sign over them but like a lot of people, they might not even think about it. They might just start signing and then be and then you see the kids eyes going back and forth like you said and you're like oops, okay, wait hold on. Yeah.
P: Right, my bad. That's like one of the interpreters had to remind me like 4 or 5 times during one class one time and I was like I am so sorry it's like I'm just so like used to doing and like I need to like, it's a skill you have to like remind yourself and be mindful of it. And for those of our gen ed teachers, be mindful of the fact that our students especially those that rely heavily on the their interpreter, cannot do note taking and watching the interpreter. So there's shouldn't be any of like watch this video and take some notes. Like that can't have, they can't do that right? Like they're either watching the video or taking notes.
D: Yeah.
P: So if you have to have a video, give some time for the video, then give some time for conversation about the video, then give some time for the note taking. It can't, it has to be separated because our kids cannot do that and or if the note taking itself is not as important where you're not really assessing, did they get this from the video and you just want them to be able to have like highlights of what was said in the video, have pre created notes for your Deaf and Hard of Hearing students so that they can focus on the video and then they can have this like blurb or whatever notes and like you know, afterwards to go back like what was said in the video.
D: Yeah I mean we have that accommodation for kids who listen too, because like they need some kids need to lip read some like and you can't lip read and take notes at the same time. So I feel like that's ah if it's in there is an accommodation too I think that's probably, like a notes ahead of time or or notes afterward like some teachers are weird about giving notes ahead of time. But that would be ideal because then we could preview it and the interpreters could preview it. But um, if it's an accommodation then they have to do it.
P: Right. So in like like for example, sometimes it would happen where if they did somehow forget like you know, look it happens like we're all human like you forget and like you ask kids to take notes like if I was lucky enough that there was only one Hard of Hearing or Deaf student in the classroom I would just like take notes for them while they were watching the video. But that's not going to happen every time and if you have like five students I can't take 5 different notes. Which kind of goes back to the need to share your lesson plan with everyone involved because then like if there are, there' is a video usually one of my recommendations whether or not they were taking notes in the video is that I would write notes for them and add them to their classwork. So yeah, no note taking or and that also happens for like maybe we're in science and you're showing a graph. Show the graph. Talk about the graph. Then note take [LAUGH]. You know?
D: Yeah.
P: So separating those things. And if you're having some kind of a project where the students are creating something and then presenting it. If at all possible, plan it in a way where the students give you their whatever they're presenting to the class prior to the day of the presentation so that you can share that with the interpreter. Especially if it's something like poetry because poetry is abstract and it's not interpreted the same way as you know, you and I talking.
D: Yeah, yeah.
P: So you interpret it like music is interpreted which is through meaning not the words that are being said. So that's much harder to do at like in that moment. So to help our interpreters really get the, or and our students really get the access they need to all of the information being provided, yeah, it is better to do that.
D: Yeah, that totally makes sense especially because like you want the teacher's message to be clear but you also want if the students presenting you want their message to be clear like they you know they deserve to have their message conveyed clearly as well, like it goes both ways.
P: Exactly . Don't say anything out loud that you don't want to be interpreted because it happens sometimes with someone's like oh don't say, don't sign that. Like you actually can't say that.
D: Yeah.
Both: [LAUGH]
P: They have to sign anything and everything that’s being said.
D: That's so funny. It's not funny, but it's like I can imagine the situations in which they would say that.
Both: [LAUGH]
P: Exactly.
D: Oh my gosh. Never a dull moment.
P: Um and then resources I don't have anything physical honestly that I can like provide but your interpreter is your biggest resource right?
D: Yeah, makes sense.
P: Ask them the questions.They are the experts. They'll be able to answer any questions and help you and like a lot of them do have like written resources that they can probably share with you or the class or anything like that.
D: Yeah, that makes, that's a great idea [LAUGH].
P: Oh so sorry one more thing. They should be involved in the IEP. Like in the document, in the meeting, like you know they are language experts. So if your student has language goals or like listening goals or whatever goals that are like language and listening and language base they should have access to that and be able to give their input.
D: Thank you so much Priscilla for sharing all of that like helpful information and tips and tricks. I think maybe teachers who don't work with interpreters frequently and then they come across one, it can feel a little overwhelming so I think just having like a reference of things to go back to is super helpful. For everyone listening, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. The links and show notes and transcript can all be found below and at listentotodpod.com. You can reach me on Instagram at Listening Fun and I'll see you next week. Bye!
P: Bye!