37: Play Based Therapy with Anna Dalziel

D: Hello and welcome to the TOD POD, a podcast to support Itinerant Teachers of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing, SLPs, and other Deaf Education Professionals. I'm Deanna Barlow from Listening Fun and today we're talking about play based therapy with Anna Dalziel. Thanks so much for being here today Anna.

A: Thank you so much for having me.

D: I'm excited because this is one of my like favorite things to talk about. So could you tell everyone a little about yourself and your background.

A: For sure. So I am a speech language pathologist, I graduated from my Master's University Of Alberta in 2008, so I've been practicing for about 15 years, working primarily with preschoolers but I have worked with kids of all ages in a huge variety of settings including in the classroom, doing consultation, working at our health unit. So here in Canada people come to you at the health unit and come see you for therapy and now I have my own private practice. I have 2 boys of my own who are 10 and 12 so I get a lot of different ideas from them I'm not gonna lie. [LAUGH] And I love play based speech therapy that is definitely my passion I could talk about it all day.

D: Well, we'll be talking about it now for the next 30 to 45 minutes so that'll be perfect. [LAUGH] So for anyone wondering, do you want to talk a little bit about exactly what play base therapy is and who it tends to be good for?

A: Definitely. So play-based therapy is simply put teaching skills in a natural environment. So we are creating opportunities for these skills and targets and words to come up naturally in the activity. So just because it says play-based therapy doesn't even necessarily mean that we're playing, it could be like when we're cooking or when we're reading a book, it just means that it's naturally occurring. And that we're able to get lots and lots and lots of models and lots and lots of productions as well. As for who it's good for, kids learn through play, that research is out there. Anytime someone asks me for research articles for play-based therapy, I mean the evidence is pretty clear that kids learn best through play because it is meaningful to them and motivating. So play-based therapy is really good for kids of any age and I think it's also good for any professional who is working with children of any age I would say from like 0 to you know 15.

D: Yeah [LAUGH] definitely think so too. I totally am with you. I feel like I really started getting into play based therapy actually when I had a preschooler who was just a little tough with the behavior and my LSLS mentor actually with pointing out to me like.. That's not the way to go with this like this kid is going to not put up with that kind of work, like you really need to do what's interesting to them. And then you'll be able to model, you'll be able to get language out. And I feel like sometimes with like more like docile kids you can get away with being I don't know less play based and like it's fine. But then you get a tricky kid and you're like oh no like they're not going to accept that kind of therapy like you really have to do it play based. And that's when it like clicked in my brain. And I've been like so play based ever since. But I feel like ever since I like discovered that I feel like I'm like yelling like play based everybody do it, it's so good! [LAUGH]

A: And even for those kids who you know will sit and do the table work, I do find that when you use a play-based approach they learn the skills quicker...

D: Absolutely.

A: …and quicker. So just because they’re like OK with it, you know what I mean [LAUGH]...

A: Yeah, That's what I realized too.

A: They still benefit from the play based therapy and also you mentioned about the behaviors like, I get a lot of questions about, well how do you manage behaviors I'm like I don't have any behaviors in play based therapy [LAUGH] because I'm following ah that they don't exist because you're following their lead, the kids are motivating, like those you know, less desired behaviors happen when it's boring or when it's too hard and in play-based therapy we're tailoring it all the time to the child's interest and their level. So yeah.

D: That was really what like flipped me into being like oh my God like you're so right.

Both: [LAUGH]

D: Um, so for us like TODs like I would say the intersection between SLP and TOD for the most part is language. Like we're not doing a ton of articulation necessarily and we are doing a ton of like listening audition kind of work but language is a big part of it for both of us. So could you share some of your favorite play-based activities for language skills with any age?

A: Definitely. So I was writing out this list of course thinking about it and I had this big list and I was writing why I chose each activity and then I realized that it's all the same reason. [LAUGH] So before I go to the activities I'm gonna just list the reasons of why I chose these activities. So the reason is because they can be modified for any skill or any target. I'm not sure the terminology you use when you're working on this. We call them targets.

D: Yep, that's fine.

A: Yeah okay. So any of your targets you can incorporate a theme if that's your jam and if not that's OK, too. They get kids moving which I think is really important in therapy especially with the little ones but even with the older ones. They can also be as simple or as complicated as you wish so you can modify it and they’re no prep or minimal prep.

D: Yeah I love that one. That's my favorite one. [LAUGH]

A: For sure right? So these are kind of all these activities. I just picked three I had like 20 and then I'm like you need to…

Both: [LAUGH]

A: So a scavenger hunt. It's so simple and so easy. So basically you hide things around the room. Now how you can modify is you can hide anything. If the kid loves superheroes you can hide superheroes around the room. If you're working on pronouns you can hide figurines of different people around, whatever. So you can hide anything around the room, the kids find it and bring it to you. To make it more complex you can make them rules like if the superheroes wearing a cape bring him to me if not put him in the bucket. So you modify it to however complex. Or if you're just working on little kids, you could just be like bring me the one with the hat. You know what I mean and they have to go through. So you can modify it, gets kids moving, and no prep because you can just hide them around. And to make it super no prep I get the last kid to hide the items for the next kid.

Both: [LAUGH]

D: Amazing.

A: So you just have to make sure you kind of pay attention so you know where you're looking. You don't want to lose any of your items.

D: That's so funny.

A: So that's really one, and one way to make it more complex for older students is I have clues. So if they can read it'll be like as complex so you could work on like idioms or you could work on those really understanding those really complex things if you're reading them out to them as well. So that's one way. Do you have any questions about that one?

D: I love it. I love stuff like that because I feel like, like you said, just getting them up and moving like eliminates so many problems. Like especially if they're like little or if they're fidgety and then a lot of what you just said, it's language. But it's also listening because like you can really adjust that like direction to be like on their auditory memory level really like appropriately and you're getting the opportunity to model which like I feel like a broken record when I'm just like talking about like model model model like that's how you teach it like [LAUGH]...

A: For sure.

D: But I um we did a whole episode like towards the beginning about like teaching versus testing about how it's not just like testing say this say this say this or like follow this direction follow this direction but like taking the time to model it and I feel like scavenger hunts are really fun because you have a lot of opportunity to model and then also like if you wanted to flip it, and then you have to go, they hide stuff and you find it like I've done it that way. Like then you have the opportunity for them to use it, but they already heard you model it a bunch, like anything like that I love because it's like super fun.

A: Right. And it's so easy and you can modify it like you said a hundred different ways.

D: Yeah.

A: I use a scavenger hunt in most of my sessions for a huge variety of different skills.

D: Mhm.

A: So the next one is rescuing animals or toys. So you can rescue them from ice. Like you can freeze them in ice if you want to be bougie.

Both: [LAUGH]

A: You can rescue them just from like painter's tape on a cookie sheet or on your wall. You can rescue them from different boxes. Kids love rescuing, they love that feeling of helping right? Because it's not often that kids are the helpers right? It's usually adults helping them. So they truly really love that role. And then you can model things like plurals. You can model things like negation, like they are stuck, they aren't stuck. Future verb tenses like you will help him or you did help him, that's past tense. So lots of opportunities there and again you can really modify it to the student's interest if they really like zoo animals, rescue zoo animals, if they like space, rescue some astronauts. And you can make it as simple and complex as you wish again. So yeah.

D: Yeah, I like that. I feel like a lot of that's in the framing because like I've like used masking tape before but I don't think I've ever framed it as like you're going to rescue them like that's so fun like I feel like just setting up that like ah situation for them makes it so much more fun than just like playing with masking tape you know or painter's tape.

A: Yeah, yeah, and you could even mix it up with the scavenger hunt to rescue the animals around the room right? They’re on the wall and you could like give them a cape, like you could get as like I said you can be as simple or as complex as you want in as prep time or not prep time as you want as well.

D: Yeah, and I like the painters tape one too because a lot of times as itinerant TODs we're like not in our own room or like we're we're in a lot of like different rooms and like painters tape is not going to ruin anyone's walls or like be hard to carry or like that's just like a very flexible thing that I feel like you could tape stuff anywhere you want and you'd basically be fine. [LAUGH]

A: Yeah for sure. I do always recommend test a little sample just in case. But I have never had any issues personally. And then the last one, real easy, of course I always say use caution when you're doing anything that could potentially be a choking hazard. So like oh a student might put it in their mouth, well then don't use it. Like I mean you know I mean? [LAUGH]

D: Yeah, fair. [LAUGH]

A: Like I don't I don't have a solution other than using your you know, use your common sense if it's not gonna work. But, playing with a balloon. So this was actually inspired my 10 and 12 year olds have been home for cold for the past few days and blew up balloons for my husband's birthday the games that they have come up with with these balloons like I can't even so many different games. So playing with the balloon is really great for modeling concepts like high, low, slow, fast. Verb tenses again if you wanted to work on some following directions. Other concepts like long, slow, like you kept it up for a long time, you kept it up for a short time, which balloon's big, which is small. So really easy and kids of all ages like little babies love, like not babies but like I call them babies, like 2 three year olds and older kids love balloons. So yeah, really easy.

D: Yeah, I like balloons. I also like balls for similar reasons like anything that you can like bounce in the air seems to be like, and I like beach balls like specifically like not like heavy balls.

A: Dodgeball.

Both: [LAUGH]

D: Yeah not a dodgeball.

D: And not even like, they make like plastic balls that are like not that heavy, but the beach balls are really light. So like you don't like if they knock into stuff, they're not going to knock anything over.

A: Perfect.

D: Which has like um, come in which is, I've learned by experience. Let's just say that. [LAUGH] That like the beach ball is better. And they make like little beach balls for like littler kids and the those are easier and I feel like those are just as like good. I'm going to try balloons though because balloons is fun I haven't done that. I just got to double check latex allergy.

A: Yes, of that of course. Like I said, I mean you know.

D: I always just say that because I feel like people forget about latex. They think about food but not about things that you touch. But I love balloons because I feel like that would, I mean you'd get their attention for sure like can you imagine, like I think you could do a whole session just on balloons like you won't need to bring anything else. [LAUGH]

A: Yeah really right? So that's kind of when I tried to pick these activities I wanted it to be like low prep and not a lot of stuff because I myself used to go to 20 different schools. So I get it. I can relate to that. So yeah.

D: Yeah, yeah, and like my next question is some ideas for more like older students. But now that I'm thinking about it like I could definitely bring a balloon to my third grader, we could just like bounce it back and forth and like chit chat, do whatever we need to do. And like I bet like she would love that. [LAUGH]

A: Yeah, my kids are in grade 5 and 7 and they were playing a game that they had like they had to count who could hit it the most and then they would like go farther and farther from each other and who like and even following their lead with the balloon can be so, is so beneficial right? And let them come up with a game. And this actually kind of segways into our next question with the older students because I think, I know myself even when I first graduated when I talk to SLPs, I think we think that there's like little kid toys and like little kid activities and then like magically when kids hit what second grade all of a sudden they don't want to do things. But that's not true. Older elementary kids even and even my son's in junior high they still like to play and they still even like to play with things for younger kids. We still play pop-up games at my house like you know So it's okay to bring things that we think are for younger kids for those older kids. It also reduces that cognitive load right? If we bring something that's like super complex and we're expecting them to learn things. It can be a little overwhelming for kids. Like think about trying to, there like there's a reason driving and texting is illegal. [LAUGH]

D: Right.

A: It's too much for us to do right? So but I did come up with a few ideas, so which kind of goes into the balloon but idea. But make their own game with anything. So you could just bring out like game pieces and a dice and a balloon and be like hey we're gonna make a game and that's great for working on that expressive vocabulary and if you want and you can model different things especially for those conditional words like if, then, next, first, before, right? Really good. And then for kids who need, you know, you can model it and then they can can do it. Trying to follow directions, that's another thing that kids have like really enjoyed, some of my older students. And then and that's a great one to do in a group. I don't, do you work in groups ever?

D: Not usually, it's usually individual.

A: Okay well you could do a barrier task then even. So you go back to back, I'm sure you're familiar with this…

D: I love drawing yeah. It’s a staple.

A: Yeah, go back to back tell each other how to draw a snowman or whatever and see if they're the same and different. Again really good for that um more complex language to explain to people because you don't even realize the words you're omitting when someone you're trying to… [LAUGH]

D: Right. So true, I do like if I don't have two, a lot of times I'll use whiteboards, if I don't have two whiteboards, I'll just take a piece of paper and fold it into like four quadrants like you know.

A: Perfect

D: Like hot dog style, hamburger style. That way we have four like chances to do it and then you could turn it over and do it four more times. Without wasting so much paper because I feel like, and then you have the whole thing where they can see how much is left you know what I mean? And then the activity’s finished it like makes sense to them that like the activity is finished and we move on to the next thing.

A: Yeah, I love that idea. I've never done that, that's a great idea. Another thing for older kids, so again like I said I have 10 and 12 year old boys who love sports so I had to think about this, but playing different sports with rules. I mean obviously again like I mean like tabletop or like a small version I don't mean like whipping a basketball around the room

D: You don't bring a full size hockey stick to the school?

Both: [LAUGH]

A: A mini stick maybe like that, just kidding. But if you even have like you could play basketball and you have a basket and they have to throw bean bags or crumpled up paper. Or you could do hockey like we've done tabletop hockey cause I'm Canadian so hockey's really popular. We have nets and you just have like pompoms and popsicle sticks. So anything like that that kind of brings that sports, especially with those older kids cause that's like still I think cool. I don't know if kids say cool but you know.

Both: [LAUGH]

A: Still things that they kind of enjoy. But again, really good for that like higher level language. And then board games, I know that is so simple but I think board games for all ages are great, Really easy to kind of incorporate those goals and it's crazy how much language goes into teaching and playing a board game.

D: Yeah, so follow-up question about the board game.

A: Yeah.

D: How do you incorporate goals into it without just doing like you answer a question you get a turn? Like instead of just using it as a reinforcer can you give some examples of how you actually incorporate the language goals into a specific board game?

A: Oh, oh sure. So if we're working on like verb tenses, is that something and you would work on?

D: Yeah.

A: Verb tenses. So things like: I'm going to roll the dice. So before you roll the dice, I’m going to roll the dice, I rolled the dice. You are moving your guy, so that's for verb tenses. If someone got 5 and I got 2, you got more than I did. So you could work on concepts like that. You're closer to the finish line than I am. Just thinking of different types of board games to have an example. I'm looking up what I have on the table.

D: Oh yeah, and a lot of times I change the rules.

A: Yeah, and that's another thing changing the rules is to accommodate right? But if you think about it like language is everywhere right? So you can modify it and model whatever thing that you it is that you're teaching throughout that game. And I always say like if you can't target your goal in a play activity then you might not have a super functional goal right?

D: Yeah I think that's probably true.

Both: [LAUGH]

A: Yeah, and I mean and some games will lend themselves to to different goals better than others. It depends on what like inventory you have of games. I have an incredible amount of games. So yeah.

D: Yeah I don't have a ton of games. I have like a you know a handful but not like a ton but I do have like a bunch on my like iPad that are just like the same thing but like um like it's like Connect Four, but on the iPad, it's Battleship, but on the iPad, like it's because they don't need internet. Because I never have internet anywhere I go. Which is fine like I don't, I can survive without it. But it's kind of nice just to have some of those options like I have like you know the pop up games which even my big kids still think are hilarious.

A: Yeah that’s what I said! They love them!

D: And by pop up games I mean like Pop Up Pirate and like the shark one where it's like you pick the fish, ah Shark Bite. That’s what it's called. I took it out of the box so now I don't remember what it's called, I just carry around the shark with me. [LAUGH] Ah, so but like they still like that, like they they're still into that.

A: So yeah, Greedy Greg me I think is a good one for older kids because it is kind of scary and Dragon Snacks actually are ones that my kids, older kids, really like as well. But again, yeah so yeah, just modifying it kind of for those goals. So like with Connect Four you could say we need one more, we need two more, you have two spots, plurals, that kind of thing. Yeah.

D: Yeah, sometimes I'll do it too, if they're like card games or like anything where we're taking turns I'll have the, like I'll pick the card for you and tell you what it says.

A: Okay yeah.

D: And then they pick the card for me and tell me what it says so like a lot of times we're working on auditory memory. So like I don't want them to read it I want them to listen to it. So like by me picking the card and giving them a like telling them what it says they have to listen and then when they pick the card and tell me what it says they have to expressively use it. So I feel like, once they understand that that's how we're playing like it's easy. Um, and you get a lot of like practice and they don't really think they're practicing, I mean they know they're practicing but we're not stopping in between every round to do something else. We're just playing the game like in this specific way.

A: And it is funny because I'll have some people say well how do you get enough trials? And I say I actually get more because we're doing therapy the entire time. We're not stopping. Not stopping to play a game because then play does seem quote like a waste of time right? Because you're just like you take your two minute turn and then you do one production or five trials or whatever you want to call it and then you play. But when you're just embedding it into the game naturally, you're actually getting way more trials and you're doing therapy for a longer time. So yeah.

D: Yeah, and I especially feel like with our like listening goals and stuff like it's very hard to just do trials without the kid getting super bored. Like because it's, it's very, it's not even like they're doing anything. They're following a direction which is like so boring. So like I just, that that never quite worked for me I think it's easier, just I actually think it's easier just to embed it in that way, you're not like fighting, like not going up river, you're just like going with the flow.

A: And then you're not worried about like if you have cards or anything like that. You're not worried that you don't have the right ones or you left them in your bag because you can just use whatever you have in front of you right? So yeah. And then the last one for older students are building challenges. So kids love building things.

D: Oh fun.

A: You can make it complex like build the Leaning Tower of Pisa or you could make it easy and just say build a house. Again modified for kids different ages and you can do that with like toothpicks and marshmallows to make it more challenging or you could do it with like Legos or whatever kind of building supplies that you have so older kids seem to really like that as well.

D: Yeah, so. I Feel like I could definitely do that more. I feel like that would be really fun. That's not one that I've done like recently . I do have Legos but I feel like like you said there's a lot of other materials you could use to build that are like not that heavy like you could just like stick a bunch of stuff in like a big zip block and like that could be it.

A: Yeah, yeah, you could just have a bunch of stuff. You could have like toothpicks, popsicle sticks, I like those little, I think they're called Plus Plus blocks, Magformers, they're heavy but then they're for younger kids, Lego, what else have I used for building? Lincoln Logs, I have some of those. I have a lot of building stuff because kids like I like you said you just grab a bag of stuff and go.

D: Yeah, and like I feel like too kids really like when I mix materials like I don't know if they just like don't have permission to do that like other times but like, I bring play dough and pompoms and you would think I am the most fun person on the planet because I let them put the pompoms in the play doh, like life changing.

Both: [LAUGH]

A: Hilarious that you said that because I actually just wrote that, I put mini objects in play doh as an example in the thing I was writing and I was like kids think it's the best thing ever.

D: Yeah I think I did it. It was like pompoms and I think maybe little popsicle sticks or something. I don't know what it was but it like, they like to stick the popsicle sticks in the play doh. But then they also like stick the pompoms in the play doh. I don't even remember what we were doing. It was just like they can make eyes like there's just like a lot of different like mixing stuff because sometimes mixing it even if I don't have a clear idea of what they're going to do, they have a clear idea and then that's good enough for me. [LAUGH]

A: For sure and I think that that's the beauty of play based therapy is you get to follow their lead Once you're comfortable eliciting those goals and stuff and you're able to do whatever the kid wants so and within reason. [LAUGH]

D: Yeah, within reason. But I do think that building one with like fun materials is definitely one that itinerants could do because you just like you said throw a bunch of stuff in a ziploc bag, bring it with you, and then go from there. But there's so many like, that always got their attention and then as you're going you can incorporate whatever goals you need to incorporate into it. That actually does lead in, it's such a beautifully flowing conversation because it leads into my next question almost like you prepared. [LAUGH]

A: I do think about things sometimes not always but sometimes.

D: My next question really was like can you give some ideas for play based therapy If you have limited materials because us as itinerants carry everything in. So like weight is a factor but also like amount of materials is a factor and being able to use it for a lot of different kids.

A: For sure. So like I had kind of alluded to earlier, I did this for seven years I traveled between 20 schools over like a two hundred mile radius and so I get it.

D: Yeah, that's pretty big.

A: Yeah, and I had two kids of my own like they were two and four when I started. So I'm like I didn't have time to repack everything every single night for, like that just wasn't a reality. So what I did that worked for me is to just create one tote, it was like, it was actually from Thirty-One but it doesn't matter what your tote is. And I just had like all my materials for the month. And I'd have like some books, some games, a craft, a building activity, a toy and a sensory bin. I love themes. So mine were all theme related. It helps me get organized and grab my stuff. You don't have to use a theme. But I found with that kind of like core set of activities that you just always had it was just so easy because you could follow the child's lead. You could mix it up with different ages, different goals. Which just made it really really easy for me and then of course I also have visuals and stuff. It was just really easy to have that tote that I just literally carried in my house and took out so that made it easy. But another thing if you're not into doing that is just use what they have right? So I don't know what rooms itinerant teacher, like where, do you have like a room or do you go in the classroom or does it depend?

D: Oh it depends. Sometimes it's a speech room, sometimes it's a hallway, sometimes it's the back of the classroom. I'm a lot, if I have a speech room I'm thrilled. I'm like having a great day. [LAUGH]

A: I get that, I feel that. I've done therapy in the bathroom before so…

D: Oh ok! That I haven’t done.

Both: [LAUGH]

A: At the sink, not in the yeah, we were like getting up and doing washing hands and playing in the water. So anyway, but I think that, like obviously I don't think you can do that all the time. I think you might get a little bit bored if you just use what they had all the time. But just remember like you don't need to have a huge amount of things because you can use what's already there. You can go to the bathroom and do water play. You can go in the hallway and do a scavenger hunt or an eye spy. So thinking kind of outside of that box and I think the biggest biggest biggest tip for me, that was the like game changer, was remember you can reuse books and activities. like and I think that we as educators think that we can't do that Especially like I always had someone watching my session. There was always a parent or an aide in the class in the room because I was also consulting so I would feel bad I'm like oh we read this book last time.

D: Oh yes.

A: And I think that we as educators think that we can't do that. Especially like I always had someone watching my session. There was always a parent or an aide in the class, in the room, because I was also consulting so I would feel bad, I'm like oh we read this book last time. Or the the aide would be like you read it last time I'm like yeah because kids actually learned through repetition or if they really loved an activity bring it again right?

D: Yeah, oh and I got over that a long time ago. I love repeat activities.

A: I think, but it also helps build connections like I don't know that study that says kids need to read a book however, many times to like learn the vocabulary from it right? So or listen to a story. So you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And then also once you use play based therapy you realize that you're not prepping for every single student. So you don't need that much stuff because you're able to use the same book with 10 different kids. You're able to use the same building activity with fifteen kids because you can modify it accordingly. So I think that's the beauty of play based therapy is you actually need less stuff even though people think I think they're like we don't have a huge collection of this. You don't need a huge collection of stuff. In my opinion.

D: Right? Yeah I think that honestly the repetition piece is so important, especially for kids with hearing loss like we know for a fact they need more repetition than even typical hearing children who also need a lot of repetition. So I feel like it also like builds their confidence a little bit because like they know like what the things are called now and they know like the rules of the game or like they just like feel a little more like confident like when they do something more than once and then I can either like bring down my, not my prompts, but you know what I mean like bring down my support a little bit, do a little less modeling. Maybe I do really heavy modeling the first time we do it and don't expect them to do much. And then the next time I'm doing less, they're doing more. Like it gives you I feel like it's so much easier to make progress when you have a constant and you're like seeing that change over the course of like a month. I do also about like a month like that's, like because I see most kids once a week.

A: Yep, that was me too.

D: So that's kind of my sweet spot. And I feel like that was like not too much on my brain but also enough for that, that it's like interesting but then by the time they've seen it a couple times like they I don't know like I can really tell whether or not they're able to use whatever I was targeting with that thing by the fourth time and then I switch it to something else and then we keep going. But I feel like it's much more meaningful when it's not something random every single time.

A: Right? Well if you think about kids who play at home like they don't play with a toy once and then never play with it again. There's the kids have favorites they play with it all the time right? And the play looks different every time. So if you bring in some magformers one time, one day they might make houses for the animals. The next time they might make a castle like you know so there's lots of ways to use all these different open-ended things, so.

D: And I feel like the kids will tell you what they like, like so [LAUGH]

A: Can we play this next time? I have that, and I do and I actually write it down. I'll be like I'll write it in their chart on a post it at the front. I'll just write like they really like that and bring it like I don't care what we do I just care that they're learning and having fun and engaging. It's not about me right? So yeah.

D: Yeah, and it's not always what I expect too because I always ask them when we're walking back mostly because I want to work on their memory but like, can you, like do you remember everything we did today and then can you tell me what your favorite thing was like after they've told me after they recalled everything we did. And I'm always kind of surprised by what the favorite is. It's not always what I like it might be what I thought sometimes what I think is most fun in the moment and they're like I really liked that book we read and I'm like well awesome yay! Like, like I was like oh there were so many other fun things. But the book is what you like the best like I love that.

A: Yeah, yeah.

D: Like makes me so happy but like sometimes they say like I like to the iPad I like the magnet tiles, whatever which is fine but it's not always what I expect and then I have a little bit of insight of what type of thing worked well for them for next time.

A: Right and even repeating activities I just want to elaborate too because you're talking about that. Year to year as well right? I think like, I have friends who are like planning a new lesson for the whole year I'm like well you did that last year I'm like they don't remember.

D: They don't remember. Yeah.

Both: [LAUGH]

A: I read Sneezy the Snowmen with like one of my students I've had for like 4 years and he loves it and he's like I love this book! Like yeah, okay, just like we listen to the same Christmas songs or we listen to you know we do the same thing on we have traditions or whatever so it's totally fine to reuse things you don't need new things every year.

D: Yeah I don't remember what I did last year, so I don't think they remember what I did last year.

A: I don't know what I did last week sometimes, yeah for sure. So that's just another tip to not, I think just not putting too much pressure on yourself to always have something brand new and exciting every time for every kid. It's a good way to get to burnout.

D: Yeah I feel like just like cycling in new things like occasionally like when I think of them. Like I use Google keep on my phone to like keep track of all my ideas and stuff, I've talked about it before on the podcast. But I have one note on there that's just like ideas that I see on my podcasts or social media or like whatever and I just like jot them down in there and then that way when I feel like I'm getting in a little bit of a rut, I just like scroll through and I'm like oh yeah, like the the marshmallow popsicle stick, or the marshmallow toothpicks, like what a great idea like maybe I'll try that next week. And then I just like I rotate them in as I feel like I'm getting bored because I feel like when I'm getting bored that's like...

A: Well, your excitement's not there.

D: ...my boredness comes through.

A: A hundred percent I actually had a course member from the play based speech therapy course message us and she's like I tried this game to target /ch/ it was a speech goal, and it was like how your chicken she's like but it was so boring and the student wouldn't get interested I'm like well you sound like you were bored!

D: [LAUGH]

A: So like if you're bored, they're bored. They feel that energy. Like I can make a paperclip exciting, you know what I mean? But if you're not, if you're truly not enjoying it then you know, then find something else for sure.

D: Yeah I feel like there are certain things that like, I like playing with farm animals but like after a while like maybe I'm not that interested in farm animals and like, and that's why even if the kid haven't seen farm animals in six months like I don't have to play with them if I don't want to like I can bring something else. And that will be much more meaningful to them because I'm like not going crazy making animal sounds for the tenth time that day.

A: Yeah.

D: So I feel like it's nice to just like keep a running list that way when you feel that like drag you can just like scroll through and be like and just add one thing in. Like it doesn't have, you have to revamp everything. Just like one new little thing and all of a sudden I'm like okay I'm good again, like I'm back to being high energy.

A: That's great to have like good list of those ideas and stuff. I love that.

D: Because I used to just write down ideas like every random place that I could write down something. [LAUGH] Then I like got into my Google keep and now it's like I do it on my work Google keep like not even my like, because I have everything separate. So it's like you know, right next to my notes and my district info is like right underneath that like a bunch of ideas so that way it's like accessible to me when I'm out.

A: Yeah.

D: Not like in a planner on my desk at home. I would love to I would love to be able to check my planner at home. But unfortunately I like live off my phone. Basically.

A: Yeah, that's where my is, but I also work out of my house, so I guess it works. Okay and I'm like let me check my planner at home. Anyways, yeah I'm old.

D: I would love to be able to check my planner at home. But unfortunately I like live off my phone basically. [LAUGH]

A: When I was at schools I didn't have a plan, yeah I carried my planner with me. I don't know if that's makes it worse or better. But anyway...

D: I used to do that and then I was like too heavy got to let it go.

A: Phones easier, yeah for sure.

D: Okay, perfect. Is there anything else about play base therapy any like big tips, important information, that I haven't asked about specifically but you feel like it's important for people to know?

A: I think we touched on it. But I think that the more you do it the easier it'll get right? So I think people try it, maybe try it once and then they're like that didn't go how as I expected, so I don't want to do it anymore right? But it's like with anything like riding a bike or whatever it takes practice and the more you practice the easier it gets. The less you have to prep, the more you'll be able to just jot a note down in your phone and just be like yeah I'm gonna do that I know exactly how to target all of those things. And then the other thing is following their lead is really a beauty part of play based therapy. So typically when people come to me for advice or like they're just starting, so I kind of give more structured ideas because I feel like once you build that repertoire of ideas you're able to follow the child's lead because I know in our grad school, we were like follow child lead, follow child's lead. But I'm like but I don't know what to do if they start banging blocks, I don't know how to follow their lead. But when you start a little bit more structured you'll get less structured quickly, also very quickly. But I think it just gives you something to start like a starting point and just like you're giving yourself more cues or prompts like we do our students. So yeah, starting a little bit more structured and then you'll easily be able to follow their lead. Yeah I think those were kind of the big two that I had jotted down.

D: Perfect and I know you have lots of resources for people on play based therapy and a lot of information. So can you please share what you have resources, links, for people who really want to start getting into play based therapy and like need more structure. What do you got?

A: For sure. So we have um Kirsten is another Canadian SLP we met through Instagram and bonded through our love for play based speech therapy. We created an online play-based speech therapy course for Speech Language Pathologists, we've had Teachers of the Deaf, we've had OTs take it. And it is very comprehensive. It will teach you everything from start, everything from like talking to parents to getting organized and everything in between. And we also actually have a free webinar that you can take it's a great place to start. It gives you kind of like a little crash course and you can get an hour professional development...

D: Yeah, we should be able to, most people.

A: Okay, yeah I know that you definitely check with your regulatory body to make sure but we do offer a certificate at the end. So that would be a really great place to start. I also created a course called The Language Rich Preschool which helps educators create a environment that fosters language naturally through daily activity. So through like snack time, through circle time, through lining up, all those things that you're already doing in the classroom. So that's a really good program for anybody who's either consulting to a teacher or is in the classroom themselves to kind of just set it up and all the resources that you need to do the activities I suggest are in there. Also both of those have Instagram handles and then I have my anna.dee.slp instagram and blog. Like I have lots like it is actually writing it down sometimes I'm like oh wow this is maybe why you feel overwhelmed sometimes because you've got a lot. [LAUGH] There's lots of resources and a lot of them are free. So it's a good place to start but I would start with that free webinar if I had no idea where to start, that's where I would start.

D: Perfect. [LAUGH] I'll put all the links to all that in the show notes for everybody who wants to take a peek and even I say just like going through like following you on Instagram if they don't already, just like your stories or like your highlights like that's one of the places that I go when I need play based ideas because I'm like, I'm like oh okay I have this toy and I like can't think of like a good like play set up for it. Like kind of like I have the tape but like what do I do with the tape like oh I rescue the animals duh like as soon as you said that I was like of course that's what I would do with it like. But sometimes you just need someone to do a little of the thinking for you.

A: One hundred percent.

D: So I would definitely check out your Instagram and the webinar because I feel like that'll be like a perfect place for people who want to get into play based therapy but need just a little bit of help.

A: Perfect. Yep I agree. Perfect.

D: Awesome! Thank you so much for sharing all of that amazing information. As always the transcript and all the links we just talked about will be linked down below and in the show notes at listentotodpod.com. That's everything for today. I'll see you next week. Bye!

A: Thanks for having me!